Why Vitamin C Is Absolutely Essential
On this week’s episode we take a close look at Vitamin C and why we believe it’s an essential supplement for everyone. From immunity to skin health, Vitamin C is an important nutrient and we speak with somebody who knows exactly how important it is.
Meet Richard:
Our guest, Richard Passwater Jr., has a couple decades worth of experience in the supplement industry and he helps us understand exactly what Vitamin C does, what happens if we don’t have enough, and how to pick a supplement that works.
Some Points We Discuss:
How do you know what’s the best type of vitamin C to take? (6:32)
What makes liposomal vitamin C so bioavailable? (12:06)
What is the recommended dosage of Vitamin C? (15:47)
What is bowel tolerance as it relates to the proper dose of vitamin C? (19:02)
How do Vitamin C and collagen production work together? (26:14)
Is there any risk in taking vitamin C? (25:21)
Some Key Takeaways From This Episode:
Humans don’t produce their own vitamin C. (5:47)
There's not one Vitamin C that's ideal for everybody. (8:34)
For somebody who was on a budget, they could look for ascorbic acid to start, but somebody who's trying to really achieve some, some high levels of vitamin C quickly, they should look more for the liposomal vitamin C first. (13:14)
Of the 10 enzymes that are currently well accepted to be involved in collagen production, seven of them require vitamin C to function properly. (28:14)
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CLICK HERE FOR THE FULL SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Brian Strickland 00:37 Hey, everyone, and welcome back to The Holistic Navigator Podcast where we believe in the body's capacity for self healing, if it's given the proper nutrients and care it deserves. My name is Brian Strickland. I'm the producer of the show. And as always, I'm joined in the studio today by our host, Ed Jones. On this week's episode, we're talking once again with Richard Passwater, Jr. And you might remember that we actually have previously spoken with Richard about collagen production. But today's episode is all about vitamin C. Vitamin C is one of the most basic and essential nutrients out there, it's been around forever, but there is more to it than meets the eye, including skin health and collagen production. Because our bodies don't produce vitamin C on its own, we actually have to get it from our diet or from supplementation as we prefer. But there are many different forms and some are more effective than others. So we're breaking down the best practices for choosing the supplement that's right for you, what exactly vitamin C does, and what happens if we don't get enough. So we obviously have a lot of ground to cover. So let's go ahead and jump right into this episode. Here is your host, Mr. Ed Jones.
Ed Jones 01:44 Thank you, Brian, for that introduction. And here we are, again, with another super informative, Holistic Navigator podcast. We have a gentleman on today that I've had on one other time that was really so informative in regard to building collagen, and maybe skin health, muscular, tendons and ligaments. And it was Richard Passwater, Jr. And we talked about about collagen. And it was extremely informative. So I welcoming him back today, to the holistic navigator. Thank you for taking your time, Richard Passwater, Jr. to join me.
Richard Passwater, Jr. 02:21 Well, thank you very much for the opportunity. It's always an honor and privilege to be on your program. And you always make it very fun for me. Thank you.
Ed Jones 02:29 Well, thank you, you make it easy for me. Also, we're going to talk today about something that is probably been around in nutrition stores longer than almost anything other than maybe wheat germ. And that would be vitamin C. You know, I've been doing this for 42 years at this point. I started in 1979 as a professional career, but I actually was taking nutrients long before I started. So I've been doing nutrients and of course, vitamin C was always part of that. I'm constantly intrigued by so many aspects of the power of nutrition, if it's properly consumed, taken, purchased, and all the parts to the puzzle that we need to address. That's one reason on The Holistic Navigator I have people like you, Richard, that can inform us of a lot of the details. Because often the devil is in the details, because people who do it improperly, then they say, well, I didn't get results. Well, Vitamin C is one of those type of compounds that is, of course Linus Pauling made it famous back so long ago. And you might know the year I don't. I remember meeting Juan Cameron. And I think that was his name. I think that was one of Linus Pauling associates during the early days, and I met him in Chicago and he actually signed an autograph book for me. And Linus Pauling won the Nobel Peace Prize, he was the one who really spent decades speaking on many subjects, but one of his most passionate was the value of vitamin C for our health. And we're not going to get into all the super particulars of every ailment that a person might consider vitamin C, because I think a lot of people listening to The Holistic Navigator already has a general idea of the benefit of vitamin C. What I want to cover is, again, like the details of perhaps how to choose the best form, what are the different ways of utilizing vitamin C? Why do we need it? And what will it do for our human body? And what will it do if we don't have enough? I know that you know, the word scurvy has as to do with extreme vitamin C deficiency, and that's where they get the word limeys back in the long ago, when people traveled on the ocean and they did not have any vitamin C foods, they would start really getting deathly sick because of the lack of C and then they will start eating limes. And that's where the word limy came up. But I have always taken vitamin C from age 14. I'll be 64 here just very, very soon right around the corner and done every con there is in fact, I just did an IV about three days ago, Richard, I don't do them often. But I am again a guinea pig. And I'm a huge fan of using vitamin C along with all the other nutrients, I really look at nutrients like an orchestra, they play together to make the most beautiful music, and you can't just have one or two instruments, you and they all need to be harmonious. And I know and I'm gonna let you speak here in a minute, but I know that, you know, almost every single warm blooded creature on this earth produces their own vitamin C, especially high doses when they are ill, except there's humans and I think two other little creatures, I maybe you can remember that a guinea pig and maybe a small monkey, I'm not sure.
Richard Passwater, Jr. 05:47 Yeah, oh, there's a group of primates, which humans are amongst. There's a group of small rodent type animals like the guinea pig and cobbler arrow. It's kind of a big guinea pig. Like in Brazil, I see him. And, in fact, in it's one of the reasons that bats are often studied for viruses and bacteria and things because they, they they don't make vitamin C, much like, you know, humans do. So when you read that somebody was studying bats the first thing that comes to market. Why would somebody do that? They are they share a trait with humans, that they don't make vitamin C.
Ed Jones 06:32 Interesting. I wonder where along the pathway of evolving this, this kind of switched off, I wonder if it did switch off, or if we've just really programmed early on. But it's an interesting concept that, you know, when our pets get ill, if you test their vitamin C, when they're well, it will be a modest amount, when they're ill, they're going to produce pretty dang large amounts. Well, I'm a fan of taking vitamin C, normally for prevention, but I also really up my dose, if I think I'm what I will call under the weather. And we can talk about that from all aspects, including, you know, anything is going around, any issues. But I also believe it's highly important to maintain many of the optimal levels of our health, from the artery health to the brain health to the liver, detoxing, all of that. I really want to maybe delve into a person walks into a nutrition store or they go online. And Lordy, I mean, how many different types of C are there? There's got to be I mean, I know there's dozens of different forms of vitamin C. And then you've got, you know, different tablets and capsules and powders, and this and that. And just like one thing, I tell people all the time when they purchase ascorbic acid powder, I say, you know what, that's fine, except it's going to be hard on the enamel of your teeth. Well, no one seems to know that. So I recommend people brushing their teeth after that. Plus, we will talk about bowel tolerance. So let's just pretend like we're going into or you're taking someone into a very well stocked nutrition store and you're going to the vitamin C's section. Let's talk about some of these things. I mean, the newer one called lipo C, which is kind of a fat soluble. Tell me about that, Richard?
Richard Passwater, Jr. 08:16 Well, I you're absolutely correct that vitamin C was really chemically identified in the 1920s. And it was one of the first products commercialized on a large scale. And there there certainly lots of different clinic forms, as we like to call them available. And it can be intimidating and confusing for many people. And I don't think that there's one that's ideal for everybody. You know, as you mentioned, people have different doses. As we all we all have some bio individuality, we have different environments, different genes. We partake in different recreational activities, different things stress us and as you mentioned, when an animal that does make vitamin C gets sick, their body produces more vitamin C to help us stimulate the immune system. If they get chased by a bigger animal, you need vitamin C to make adrenaline and noradrenaline and cortisol, so the vitamin C levels will go down and somebody dealing with a challenging situation will need more than somebody who's relaxed and now kind of got the world by the throat, if they'd like to see where I'm from. And there's a variety of different you know, if a dog gets bit by a snake, the venom from the snake will usually stimulate a large increase in vitamin C production as well. Vitamin C helps, you know deal with the toxin in the body. And it's very hard to say this is a dose that's good for you. We have some guidelines about where to start, and then kind of take the old super nutrition or orthomolecular medicine way of then trying to fine tune the dose for your needs over time. But the vitamin C used in the body is in many of the biological functions is L ascorbic acid. And that is available as a supplement straight up. And it's often the most affordable, cost effective form. And it comes in a powder and a capsule and a tablet. And for most people, that can be a very good option. But people who have as an example, ulcers or inflamed gastrointestinal tracts, due to challenges from autoimmune system conditions or inflammatory conditions, the ascorbic acid can be a bit rough. And I always suggest those people and consider mineral ascorbate, where the ascorbic acid has been reacted in a complex with a mineral, such as sodium or calcium, magnesium or zinc and a complex can return to its parts when it's broken down by the body. And inside the body, after sometimes in the gut, sometimes in the bloodstream, sometimes after it's transported into cells can be converted into that mineral and into the vitamin C again. And then you you mentioned liposomal vitamin C, that's the newest one that's been commercially available. And it's a vitamin C molecule that's surrounded by a, like a lecetin or surfactin, a phosphotiydlecholine or phosphatidylethanolamine. And it helps increase the, the absorption of the product into the bloodstream. And even more importantly, it helps transport it through the body, and can even take the vitamin C through a cell wall. And that doesn't have to like wait in line outside of a receptor site. So if somebody really is trying to increase vitamin C levels, rapidly or to achieve higher vitamin C levels, for a particular application, I think the liposomal form is, is the most utilized in the body. And in unfortunately, it has a price associated with it. But I find that somebody who was on a budget, they could look for ascorbic acid to start, but somebody who's trying to really achieve some, some high levels of vitamin C quickly, they should look more for the like the liposomal of vitamin C first and and then take a look at the call on how much they want to take a day and and and there's nothing wrong buying two or three different forms. And I think you made a very strong point to that the the ascorbic acid can be damaging for teeth. So if you're going to drink it or chew it in a gummy or tablet in those applications, I think having a mineral ascorbate or a form that's going to be less acidic, is is preferential. I remember the old days where there was a particular chain that ran back in the 1970s ran a campaign talking about how vitamin C was essential for healthy teeth, which which it is. You can't build connective tissue without vitamin C. At least seven of the 10 enzymes that made collagen require vitamin C, but they made chewable vitamin C tablets that had lots of sugar and ascorbic acid and the chewable tablets actually damaged the kids teeth that were taking it to build stronger teeth. So I really liked the way you were warning to somebody does take ascorbic acid straight up to brush the teeth afterwards.
Ed Jones 14:56 That's some really great points because what you know, one of the things you said I really value is the fact that there's nothing wrong with combining different forms of vitamin C. And on the lipo C, you and I both know that there are different manufacturers of that some what I would call, I guess I would call it not grade A but a really pure, strong source of lipo, which means cooked with a fat molecule, what that means is, is going to have potentially higher levels of absorption and last longer in the body. But there's also other brands and capsules that are maybe a little bit less of the current state of research that are using a type of lipo, but there's brands that I respect probably is an A plus brand, there are no bad ones, there is just good, better best, there's no doubt. I normally and I always kind of put my two cents worth in, I normally take about 1000 milligrams of lipo C twice a day. We need to all know and I think we do know that vitamin C's water soluble. What does that mean? It means it goes in pretty quickly, it doesn't stay around too long and you urinate it out. And so to maintain a tissue level, it really requires at least twice a day dosing. I remember seeing a study where they actually tested the vitamin C levels in your eyeballs and found that you take any dose would be 25 milligrams to 1000. And it would only hang in the eyeball maybe two hours and then it would start decreasing. I think perhaps the tissues may hold it longer, I don't know. But sometimes I kind of experimented using a really small dose more often but that gets to be a headache at at certain time. But if I had eye issues or something or I was having eye surgery or wanted more in the eyeball, then I would do small doses more often. And I you know I look at people and that's what I've spent my whole life doing is really astutely observing people, everything from their look, their story, their blood work, their nutrients, the food they eat, the sleep they get or don't, the food and all the components. And I watch them because now I've been doing this over for four decades, I can really see different trends. And those people who really embrace a very comprehensive nutritional plan, it's not always but the vast majority of the time, hey age slower, they look better. They seem to have less diseases and their blood work always is better than the people who don't do the same thing. In fact, there was a really an I don't think I've said this on The Holistic Navigator, there was a gentleman that had this huge amount of bloodwork done. And it was more from a functional perspective not from diagnosing diseases. It was all about empowering his health. And it was about $500 for the bloodwork. And he was about 72 years old. And this happened about three years ago. I think his name was Jim and so Jim, we looked at it and he was exceptional. I mean, this guy was on top of his game, he felt great and everything else. Well, one day they did an X ray and found this this suppose lump or something in his lung. So they go in worried that it was cancer, they did surgery. It wasn't it was a benign tumor. But the lung doctor said I want you off all supplements for nine months. Well, they followed the advice of that a physician which I wouldn't be one that would because I'm one thing for myself, sorry. But it didn't he didn't have a good valid reason for that. Well, what happened was, so he did, he was all supplements for nine months, the difference in that blood work and he didn't change anything else in his life, he still went to the gym, he still ate the same, he did slept the same, nothing changed. The difference was like two different human beings after nine months of no supplements. It was one of the most convincing pieces of paper I've ever looked at in my 40 plus year career of what nutrients can do. And again, when people ask me, I say I think we should be doing about 1000 milligrams twice a day. Yes, I went through that era with Linus Pauling theory of bowel tolerance and maybe explained to people because there may be a place for that in some people for some reasons. What was Linus Pauling talking about with this bowel tolerance trying to figure out that dose?
Richard Passwater, Jr. 19:22 Well, the dose of vitamin C is going to vary, in my opinion amongst each individual. And Linus Pauling was a big believer that your body absorbs so different amounts of vitamin C from the digestive tract based on your needs, not the stereotypical average person's need. And in and having too much vitamin C in the the GI tract has a known side effect of causing gastrointestinal distress. Often upset stomach or diarrhrea. So he would suggest people take vitamin C, up until like to start with one gram a day and then take two grams a day, try to spread it out if you can. Like you mentioned, it's water soluble compound that you're, it's beneficial to take a smaller dose is many times a day as you can still be practical. But following Dr. Paulling suggested that you keep increasing your dose until the GI tract problems occurred, and then do back down a gram from that. And my father was friends with Pauling. And they used to do a lot of radio together of all things. They were very complimentary to one another in their styles. And in my father would recommend people take four grams a day into two servings it is possible three, those even be better, four would be ideal. But it's not practical for a lot of people. But Pauling would get angry with my father and say, Why do you tell people four grams a day you're you're hurting people's health, you should be telling him to take more. But now the Linus Pauling Institute as an example, I think recommends 200 grams a day that the dose is you know, it's a highly debatable topic, depending on what type of applications people are looking for. And what they're going to use as the benchmark for the vitamin C. I mean, if you're only looking at it to prevent scurvy, the dose that you're going to take is going to be very different than if you're going to want to keep your immune system in tip top shape. And make sure all the neuro fields have the ammunition they need to, you know, denature and destroy germs in the body, viruses, bacteria, other foreign matter that makes its way in there. So it's it's always difficult to talk about the dose. But Pauling was a big believer in that bowel tolerance, way of dosing.
Ed Jones 22:23 And you know, I've done that many times when I felt that I needed special assistance with my nutrients in vitamin C in particular, which means basically, I wasn't feeling well. And you know, I don't like that. So I've been I've kind of learned that my bowel tolerance was about 9000 milligrams, if I did 3000 in the morning, 3000 Mid Day, then by the third dose, about 3000, I would start getting loose stools. Sometimes have to go to 12 grams. And I don't I don't know from memory. But I know Linus Pauling, you know, he really liked to do that. Get to bowel tolerance and back off maybe 15 or 20%. And then he felt like that was the dose and you know, always am amused by the fact that I think Linus Pauling lived to either be 92 or 93. And the amount of naysayers who said see, the vitamin C didn't work and, and it really doesn't matter if I live to be 112 the naysayers are going to say that. However, there's a lot less naysayers today than there ever has been. They cannot debate some of the PubMed and some of the significant research and some of the biochemistry involved in this whole process. And but there will always be debate and you're right, there's and is not an exact science. I actually have a book upstairs by Merck. I just started this it was printed in I think 1943 and it is in the label was vitamin C, and it was made by Merck pharmaceuticals, the book was written, so intriguing, it talked about its benefit a whole section on tuberculosis. I mean, you know, that was a scary time with many infectious diseases. And Merck was embracing it. Of course, you know, once the the strong drugs got ahold of the whole system, then everything changed. But I still know that I do value vitamin C as a very great asset. When I say I do 2000 milligrams a day, that's not including what's in my multiple and maybe a couple other things and what's in my food, because I eat very, very varied diet of plant based foods, good solid protein, and high levels of healthy fat. I'm on a basically a keto type of diet at this stage of my life, and I do about 50 to 60 carbs Monday through Friday. I do about 150 on Saturday, Sunday. I do intermittent fasting four to five days a week. And I don't really know if I'll live a day longer than if I didn't do these things, but I can tell you the quality of life is exceptionally greater at my age. I did 63 push ups on my 63rd birthday last year. I'm still doing crazy things in the gym. And that's my test. That is when instead of running to the doctor to get physical, which is basically not that meaningful, I want to test it in the gym. Because if I can hold my breath still for two and a half to three minutes, and I can do all this, well something's positive, there's no doubt.
Richard Passwater, Jr. 25:18 You're living right.
Ed Jones 25:21 Yeah. And, you know, we do rent these old bodies, and they're going to wear out no matter how many supplements I take. But even if I kicked the bucket tomorrow, because we're all really about one blood clot away from being upside down in life, and that can be just bad luck, not bad health. So I just always want to say that, whether I made it to a point now where if I did fall over after this interview, I still know the value of really good solid nutritional supplementation, and food and lifestyle. And I know there's a website is not the best put together one, but it's called doctoryourself.com, Doctor yourself.com. And he talks a ton about vitamin C research, and has compiled a whole bunch of stuff on vitamin C for those who want to delve into it from from a person who has a passion for the benefit of vitamin C on so many levels. And I guess in closing, Richard, let's talk just a little bit about the, again, the collagen building capacity of vitamin C, because we all want to, again, age gracefully, but with that we want to look a little better. I mean, we all are a little bit vain. And, and I know that and I don't know if this is just a mental thing in me. But you know, when you look at people who smoke, their faces age, always, almost always quicker than those who don't. I'm wondering if it's the part of that is the fact that smoking decreases vitamin C's significantly. I don't know. But I do know that the collagen is an important substance. And we want to produce as much as we can as we get older. In fact, saying that I'm doing right now, because I'm always doing something strange. I'm doing a red light therapy every other day in this big room that I walk into. And it's supposed to help build more collagen. So you know, the the silica that I use, and the vitamin C and red light, I'm doing all I can to hang on, I guess so tell us a little bit before closing on the vitamin C connection to collagen?
Richard Passwater, Jr. 27:18 Well, the body has to make a pound of collagen every five days to replace, or repair rejuvenate seven sets of tissues in the body, which I think comprise about half of the collagen. So I think that the human body needs to make about two pounds of collagen every five days in order to completely repair itself. And exactly like you said, with a smoking, the smoking depletes vitamin C in the body. And the people that smoke generally look at least 15% more commonly 30% older than they are. Because they're a they that smoking introduces free radicals that damage the collagen and you have and B suppress the body's ability to make new collagen. But collagen production is an enzymatic driven process. And enzymes require cofactors. And of the 10 enzymes that are currently well accepted to be involved in collagen production, seven of them require vitamin C to function properly. And if you don't have enough vitamin C, you can't. It's a limiting factor on how much collagen you can make and how well the body repairs itself. And there's some beautiful work, the first epidemiological study that looked at what people put in their mouth and how it affected their appearance clearly showed that people that ate higher amounts of vitamin C, even modest amounts were we're talking, you know, 120 grams a day or more had noticeably fewer wrinkles, better skin moisture, better skin elasticity than people that didn't. And the lipophilic vitamin C you were talking about earlier, just went public with some data that they did on skin aging. And they found that dark ink was one gram a day reduced fine lines and wrinkles and increased skin radiance in something like four weeks and their results with three grams a day were were even phenomenally better. Also, they're there with some research vitamin C is it's quite an interesting topic right now. There has been quite a few epidemiological studies that show people with low vitamin C intake from their diet or supplements have a high fracture rate, and they have low bone mineral density. And there's two very fine studies one which went 17 years that show that people with the even modest vitamin C intake from their diet have lower fracture rate in more bone mineral density and bone mineral content than those that, you know, consume more around what the average daily value is. It's 90 milligrams a day now. But so it's a, I as a connective tissue guys, my work with vitamin C is generally in that area. But um, you know, it's also a, it's, it's a critical component for so many things in the body, especially the immune system, and the stress response system.
Ed Jones 30:40 That is awesome. And just what a, you know, power packed, 35 minutes information that you've given all of us. And I think between you and I speaking, I think we've armed people quite well to make better choices, and to understand the incredible value of, of at least moderate doses. And again, I always go back to, why would you want to not have optimal in your life? You know, I don't really care about the optimal paper towel in my kitchen, but I care about the optimal longevity, strength in the gym, look of my skin, disease prevention. And so when something's extremely safe, and we talked about weighing risk and benefit. What the heck is the real risk of taking a few 1000 milligrams of vitamin C? Well, you're gonna risk a little bit of money, you might get a loose stool if you're super sensitive, but probably not especially make the right choice. And if it doesn't work, you're really not a big loser. The thing is, is going to do something positive, it may be 2%, of what you want, it could be 100%. But again, put the odds in your court by starting these things before we fall apart. Hopefully, there's always hope, no matter where you are with health, you can start something. So I appreciate your time, Richard, your biochemistry background is phenomenal. You've had so many decades of experience in the area of of nutrients and nutritional supplementation research and biochemistry. And I think everyone is going to be better served by taking this information that you have presented. And we've talked about. So thank you so much for joining me on The Holistic Navigator again.
Richard Passwater, Jr. 32:24 Well, thank you very much for the opportunity. And I really respect everything he said, and especially in the last part about what's the downside. I always look at vitamin C, a little bit like the jet fuel plane, you know, I don't want the exact amount of fuel to fly from Baltimore to London. I want there to be a little bit of extra in case, we encounter some trouble on a flight. And I don't think there's anything wrong, having a little bit of extra vitamin C in the body each day, if you only absorb 80% of it, because you don't need it one day, you know, that's great, there will be a date, you need that extra 20%. And it will be there for you. So thank you very much for the opportunity to share. My my thoughts on vitamin C. It's a real opportunity. Thank you.
Ed Jones 33:11 Well, thank you. And again, thanks, everyone for listening each week or at least every other week to The Holistic Navigator. And we will continue this for the almost to 100. Now almost. And we'll do another 100 I'm sure over the next couple years. There's so much information that keeps coming up not even the old school information like I love this vitamin C conversation because it's something that I mean, I remember the vitamins C talk when I was eight years old, and I'm almost 64. So it's been around probably longer as far as a conversation than any part of the nutritional discussion in the whole world. And so everybody, I want you to make sure that again, feel empowered. Send us questions if you have it. Look, learn. Don't be a victim. Being a victim means you have to look for a rescuer. And that's how many of the organized medical fields are operating is by making people feel victimized. And that is not healthy on any regard. So empower yourself. We are always here to help you to learn more, to be optimally healthy. Thank you.
Brian Strickland 34:25 The information on this podcast and the topics discussed have not been evaluated by the FDA or any one of the medical profession is not aimed to replace any advice you may receive from your medical practitioner. The holistic navigator assumes no responsibility or liability whatsoever on behalf of any purchaser or listener if these materials the listing navigator is not a doctor or does claim to be please consult your physician before beginning any health regimen.