Why You Desperately Need Collagen and How to Produce It Naturally with Richard Passwater, Jr.
Collagen is definitely one of the more popular supplements on the market today and companies promoting it are saying you can have youthful looking skin, beautiful hair and strong nails. While there may be some merit to those claims, the truth is that collagen is likely far more important than many of us imagine and more complex. Collagen is an important factor for maintaining a youthful appearance as we age, but it’s benefits can actually extend into our cardiovascular health, bone health and joint health..
Meet Richard:
On this week’s episode we sit down with Richard Passwater, Jr. Richard works for a company that produces a special supplement from Natural Factors called BioSil. Richard has worked in the supplement industry for over two decades and he knows the in’s and out’s of what collagen is capable of accomplishing. We ask Richard about why collagen is so important to our health, the different types of collagen, what you can expect when supplementing with collagen, and how BioSil can actually stimulate new collagen production like no other supplement can.
Some Points We Discuss:
What is collagen and why should we know about it? (5:22)
At what point in our life does collagen start reducing and why is that? (7:50)
How do we maintain optimal collagen levels? (11:30)
What is Biosil and how does it work? (17:00)
What about collagen powders? (20:34)
Is collagen protein ideal for muscle building? (32:00)
Some Key Takeaways From This Episode:
Collagen is the glue that holds us together. (6:00)
As we age, collagen production decreases, but our lifestyle can destroy collagen. (8:55)
On average somebody loses about 1% of their collagen per year all throughout their life. (9:27)
As a general rule, the body has to make about one pound of new collagen every five days to keep the skeleton, the cardiovascular system, the joints, and the skin properly remodeled. (12:19)
It's important that people eat enough protein and they eat enough or take enough of the nutrients that are required to activate the enzymes that take the proteins from their diet and help their body keep collagen, elastin, and keratin production high in some ways. (29:10)
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CLICK HERE FOR THE FULL SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Brian Strickland: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Holistic Navigator Podcast where we believe in the body's ability to heal itself if it's giving the proper nutrients and care it deserves. My name is Brian Strickland. I'm the producer of the show and here with me in the studio as always is our host Ed Jones. On this week's episode we're talking all about collagen, what it is and why it's important and how we can actually stimulate collagen [00:01:01] production with a little help from the specialized supplement called Biosil. We've got Richard Passwater Jr. joining us and let us be the first to tell you that this guy knows his stuff when it comes to collagen. He works for Bio Minerals NV, the Belgian company that manufactures Biosil and he's got a couple decades worth of experience in the supplement industry. We've got a lot of ground to cover today. So let's go ahead and jump right into our discussion. Here's your host, Mr. Ed Jones.
Ed Jones: Thank you very much, Brian. And yes, we have another exciting podcast today on The Holistic Navigator. You know, I have spent my entire life professionally for 42 years learning deeply the impact of what certain nutritional changes, supplements, lifestyle, body hacking, can do and offer the potential of our human body. Well part of us is a part of me is vain. I have to say I want to look better, I also want to perform better. I want to think better. I want [00:02:01] to be as fit as possible despite, you know, father time’s somewhat ravaging effects on me and anyone who's aging. And so it's very very interesting to me how this collagen story has grown. I mean I've watched so many what I would call fads in the nutrition industry over 42 years and there's been a whole many pages full that has gone from nothing to 100 miles an hour and three years later, you know, it's pretty much gone to the wayside maybe five years in some cases. We certainly saw that with Dr. Oz and some of the things that he brought up. It was a flash and pan kind of deal. Well, I'll tell you a collagen started, I don't know, I guess I'm guessing 7 maybe years ago to 10, but maybe not even that far. It will not go away because it's solid. The research is very clear. And it has such potential benefit [00:03:01] for anyone at least anyone over 40 now as far as gut health, joint health, appearance, reduction of wrinkles, and I have used the self-appointed guinea pig. I use everything so I can at least speak from a place of experience and I have my two cents. I'm going to add into this and it might be a little surprising because I have found that there's part of the collagen story or products that do not work for me and part that does. But today we have a guest that I have look forward to having because we personally had some interaction somewhere between three and five years ago. We actually visited my home town here and gave a great public lecture very similar to what you're going to hear on this podcast on collagen. And that gentlemen is Richard Passwater. He has a vast history of about twenty two years experience in the industry. [00:04:01] He is a nutritional biochemist and can like a walking encyclopedia when it comes to explaining the mechanism of how so many of these nutrients can work. But especially when it comes to collagen in the collagen story. He's done over 300 radio shows. He's got peer-reviewed papers. He's written some patents five patents. So welcome to The Holistic Navigator, Mr. Passwater.
Richard Passwater: Thank you very much for the opportunity Ed. I really appreciate the opportunity to participate on your program today.
Ed Jones: Well, I know people are going to be really tuning in tightly because there is a lot of confusion on the topic of collagen. You know it’s heavily marketed. We've got many many people who you know offer a big variety of products. I mean there's so many varieties and sometimes the navigating of the supplement aisle can get pretty tricky because we've got things like type 1,2,3, [00:05:02] silica, other types, powders, capsules, tablets, gummies. You name it, it's being available. And I do know that I'm kind of concerned sometimes about some of the purity of the products which I may speak about,I may not as far as heavy metals and lead. But let's start this with what is collagen and why would we even want to know about it?
Richard Passwater: Well collagen is a strong flexible, fibrous protein that comprises the framework of all the connective tissue in our body. Pound for pound ,it's stronger than steel if you look at the tensile strength of it, but it's much more flexible. And in the older days researchers didn't really understand that it was a fibrous space protein. They thought and they referred to it as the glue that held the body together or ground substance and they named it after the Greek word for glue collagen. So [00:06:02] I think it's still the best way to describe what it is. It's the glue that holds us together and it's often best known for its critical roles in the skin where it makes up about 75% of the skin. And as an example, it gives skin its strength and its thickness. It's also what reflects light from the skin. To give somebody that radiance or glow that they have when they step into the light and it is also the appendages of the skin like the nails and hair are heavily dependent on the collagen Matrix in the hair and nail formation sites and in the skin. But collagen is much more than a pretty little fiber; it forms the framework of all the connective tissue throughout the body. As an example the bone is 30% collagen where it gives bone its flexibility and serves as the [00:07:02] binding site for calcium phosphate. The cardiovascular system is like this example in blood vessels. The body has over 60,000 miles of blood vessels and their 40% collagen. Joint tissue depending on like cartilage has about 70 percent collagen. And then you get ligaments and tendons that can get up into the 80 and 90% collagen range. But when the body needs to build something strong and flexible collagen is the go-to material to make the framework of that tissue. Ed Jones: What a great little summary of exactly what it is and how it operates. Obviously Nature has this amazing capacity to put together this orchestra of chemistry within us. Now the thing is at what point in our life does collagen start reducing and why is that?
Richard Passwater: There's generally speaking collagen production maxes out [00:08:02] when somebody's about 21 years old and all throughout somebody's life. Unfortunately collagen production generally starts to decline. The number of collagen cells the fibroblasts. It's a family of cells called fibroblasts. Some of them are fiber but just called fibroblasts others have special names like tendinocytes in the tendons. It's osteoblasts in the bone, chondrocytes in cartilage. These are the number of cells pretty much stay the same but the enzymatic activity decreases. So from a nutritional biochemistry point of view, that's good because if the cell is still there and still alive we can get it functioning right and keep it keep that production as high as possible. Also as we go through life we tend to do more things to destroy collagen. Things like stress, stress hormones, like cortisol can destroy collagen, homocysteine, [00:09:02] metabolism of the amino acid methionine can build up if people aren't eating enough B vitamins and the homocysteine destroys collagen. Free radicals and sugar through a glycation reaction can destroy collagen. So it's a factor of less collagen is being made and then more collagen is being destroyed. So on average somebody loses about 1% of their collagen per year all throughout their life.
Ed Jones: Wow, that probably applies to the majority of all people because of course aging itself is going to put us at a higher risk of most things not being optimal any longer. It's interesting that you say homocysteine. I just actually and I'm better at giving advice and sometimes taking it but I did a lot of blood work last month and I was really pleased with how all my numbers were. Honestly not bragging but they were generally of what I would see in a twenty-year-old because we do a lot of blood testing [00:10:02] here locally and but the one thing that was elevated 13.8 on homocysteine and so I've taken some steps and measures to reduce that into at least single digits. I never knew homocysteine would destroy collagen and I do know of all this other negative effects. So especially with the MTHFR gene and whatever. And also you just taught me something had no idea that collagen reflects light out of the skin. In no wonder that my one year old grandson has skin and like most kids that are just just gorgeous. It's like artwork and yet at 40 you can see such a difference and then at 80 there is no reflective quality. So, you know, I know that the people listening or like wow, this is not something to take lightly. This is really huge. And also when I talk about osteoporosis, which I have for decades, I always make the point that that calcium is not the answer to osteoporosis because collagen makes up so much of the bone because that's [00:11:02] what creates the strength of the bone itself. It doesn't matter how big the bone is if it's brittle and that's where the conventional medical model just again falls off the wagon. So let's talk about okay, we understand the value of collagen and actually we know for sure that we need to do the best we can to maintain it or we are going to suffer the outward appearance and also the inward weakness of the body. So what is the next step people need to probably know in order to help maintain and build back some of this collagen?
Richard Passwater: Collagen tissues are constantly being remodeled all throughout somebody's life. The homocysteine, the stress hormones, glycation, free radicals and also wear and tear wears down these structures. And then the fibroblast cells or similar cells will make enzymes to destroy damaged collagen to clear it out. And then the body’s continually [00:12:02] all throughout somebody's life trying to make new collagen to keep remodeling or rejuvenating these tissues. And it's a very energy dependent process and enzyme dependent process. And as a general rule, the body has to make about one pound of new collagen every five days to keep the skeleton, the cardiovascular system, the joints, and the skin properly remodeled. And to me that's a staggering amount of body tissue that has to be dynamically made every 5 days and the process starts by the linking together of amino acids in a very specific sequence that's determined by our DNA. And then there's a series of [00:13:02] enzymatic reactions that sort of process in a way the initial amino acid chain called Alpha chain and form a triple helix structure out of it and then link those triple helix structures together millions of times over to form first the fibril and then a fiber. So it's important to start with having adequate protein intake because you need amino acids for the the body to use to build the the collagen structure and then you need nutrient cofactors to activate the enzymes that are going to mature the collagen into other the pro-collagen into a mature collagen, functional collagen that can healthily rejuvenate those tissues.
Ed Jones: Now, what are the cofactors? There's something people need to know. I mean, I'm sure they are nutrient based. What are they?
Richard Passwater: Well, the two biggest in my [00:14:02] opinion to that are often limiting factors or orthosilicic acid and vitamin C. There are at least 10 enzymes involved in collagen production and seven of those enzymes are dependent on vitamin C and in my opinion six are involved are dependent on orthosilicic acid. And the enzymes are powerful machines. There are there are sort of the factory worker in the body that create or destroy things and in this case we're talking about enzymes that are creating collagen. And they generally need two keys to turn them on. Generally a vitamin or a vitamin like compound key and a mineral key to turn them on. And orthosilicic acid serves as a key in my opinion what we're definitely [00:15:02] in for in my opinion 6 and vitamin C and 7 iron is also important and copper is another enzyme that's required in collagen production. But two I find that are often lacking that really stand in the way or the vitamin C and orthosilicic acid. Ed Jones: Well, that's amazing. Now. The orthosilicic acid most people would know that under the term silica. Is that correct?
Richard Passwater: Yes, the mineral is called silicon and the the biologically relevant form of silicon is orthosilicic acid. Ortho means one so orthosilicic acid to single solicic acid molecule and found in nature and mineral water and then when silicon found in foods where it's often found in fibrous protein and connective tissue and animals and stuff [00:16:03] and the some of that can be digested into orthosilicic acid, but using stomach acid. But unfortunately as people get older they have less stomach acid and they digest less of the orthosilicic acid from the silicon and their food and in my opinion it's one of the reasons that collagen production often decreases as people get older.
Ed Jones: That's another big jewel of information because here on The Holistic Navigator I've done many podcasts as far as the relationship between gut integrity and health and the downstream effects of what happens when it is not optimal. You really cannot be fully functional and optimal if your gut is not healthy. I mean even a Hippocrates said that thousands of years ago that disease begins in the gut but also healing does too. I am you know, believe it or not. I'm coming back with my memory now when you were here somewhere between four and six years ago. Speaking [00:17:03] used talked about a brand called Biosil that you actually got me started taking that to a level that I had never done before. Now, of course, I take a wide variety of nutrients and vitamin C is always been a key component and I'm a huge believer in doing it multiple times a day to maintain blood levels. I'm now doing lipo type of C, which is more fat bound. So it lasts 10 potentially longer, but I'll do a morning and afternoon and evening dose because of its multiple effects, especially during all this pandemic area that we're going through you want to do all you can to make your immune system as strong as it can. But as far as the Biosil and then after this I want to get into the collagen powders because that's what most people take but I can tell you from my own personal experience and I think I remember you saying that, you know, the bottle says take two a day, but there's absolutely zero and you can certainly clarify this if you do for a day I've done three to four day most of the time for the past few years [00:18:03] and I can tell you when the and we all I think it like this you forget to replace your bottle when you take as many supplements as I do. And there's times where all of a sudden like two months will go by and I'll say I have not been taking Biosil and I literally can tell a difference. How can I tell it? My joints are feeling a little bit more my age, but my skin, and my nails like I have to cut my nails without Biosil, I can just tell you I cut them every two weeks with Biosil. I cut them every five to six days. I now go get my haircut every three weeks used to I could go five to six weeks, and then the wrinkles are staying at a minimum considering my age and the fact that I never use suntan lotion because I don't believe that I need to unless I'm going to stay excessively out in the Sun and also believe the toxicity of most suntan lotions are worse than getting the sun anyway. So I'm kind of a walking testimony for Biosil. It's so taking double dose is fine, correct?
Richard Passwater: [00:19:04] Yeah, we generally use two capsules a day in clinical studies with Biosil but I often run into Medical Professionals that recommend more. As an example the famous dermatologist. Dr. Nicholas Perricone recommends 4 a day. Sherry Rogers who does a lot of I work with Dr. Sherry Rogers does a lot of work with them Rheumatology and different types of joint health recommends for a day. I do some interviews with Dr. Garko. He takes 4 a day. It's common to take 4. I always suggest somebody take two because there's 20 years of clinical research showing where to deliver some very nice results. But some people can benefit taking taking three or four. Absolutely. I don't think there's any safety concerns in those doses. Absolutely not.
Ed Jones: Good. And I do [00:20:04] know there's many companies that make the silica type of product and I have used a variety of them over the years, but I continue to come back to Biosil intuitively and also the bulk of research seems to be so confirming that particular brand. So and again, you know, we're sponsored by nutritionw.com, which they have the online presence that anybody who needs to order something like that can order from on using typing in and go Biosil. Now the most people don't do that. I know that at least in all the conversations I have and all the massive advertising. They're wanting the powders they're wanting and then when they look at the powder, they're always like what is type 1 mean? Type 2 type 3, type 5, whatever. The concern I have and I don't need you to probably address it unless you want to make a comment because I want to inform people if they are going to buy powder, what would be the best probable way to do that? However, I did run across some research about a year ago that said that's that sometimes collagen powder [00:21:04] will block the tryptophan pathway biochemically and some people are having some anxiety issues a little more anxiety if they already have a tendency. And I did I've actually found the powders were causing me to be more anxious the Biosil never does that. And then secondly I am concerned about the purity of many of these products being sold because many of them are made, you know from the caged animals, the bad farming methods that are using terrible foods and the probably the worst growing methods. Well, you know, you are what your food eats. So if you are having a food like chicken or beef that has been processed or grown incorrectly and given terrible quality foods, you are getting what they also consumed. And before I forget it, I am also like I said earlier they guinea pig. At this point, I've been doing four weeks of red light therapy using about a 630. I think nanometer red light therapy where I stand in this big machine [00:22:04] three times a week and it is supposed to also boost collagen. And so, you know, I'm experimenting again with that. But let's go back to the powders. What does a person listening right now who's like they've already bought a powder or they haven't bought one. What kind of advice can you give them as far as being a more prudent shopper?
Richard Passwater: Well, in my opinion collagen supplements and eating collagen and collagen peptide supplements, peptides just a fancy term for a short collagen fragment, a small collagen fragment only a couple of amino acids long. And in my opinion they serve mostly as a source of amino acids. When you eat proteins your body generally breaks them down, digests them into the Amino acids that they're composed of. In some instances if the collagen peptide supplement is small enough that peptides may be absorbed whole. [00:23:04] In my opinion, those peptides are then broken down inside the body in the pro-collagen recycling system into the amino acids. There's a newer line of thought that's promoted by some of the collagen peptide supplement makers where they say that collagen peptides perhaps acts like sort of signal to the body to try to make more collagen. They'll say hey, there's collagen peptides floating around. The only reason there's collagen peptides in the body is collagen is being broken down too fast. And it's somehow stimulates the production of messenger RNA to tell the body to make more collagen. I'm a little bit skeptical of that. In my opinion though the work comes from Bioassays and they can sometimes be erratic by the effect of adding [00:24:04] something to a growth media in a cell culture and stuff. I think that collagen supplements work primarily or in fact wholly by being a source of the building blocks for college in the amino acids. So if somebody's not getting enough protein in their diet and they want to take a collagen supplement to make sure that they have enough glycine or proline, collagen supplements are something to consider for that purpose. But the collagen supplements themselves don't activate the enzymes in the body that make collagen you need those nutritional components we talked about before the orthosilicic acid like in Biosil and the vitamin C. And then with Biosil it also contains as the choline stabilized orthosilicic acid complex that it contains choline which helps neutralize homocysteine [00:25:04] and it helps neutralize to some degree or modulate cortisol production. So that can help collagen production or help prevent college and damage. I misspoke there. I apologize. So it not only helps stimulate collagen production, but it can also protect existing collagen as well. And it's two different ways to go about it and in my opinion a nutritional treatment or a nutritional protocol with Biosil and a vitamin C, whether from the diet or with the supplement program is a great first-line protocol for for everybody to keep their collagen production high. And then for people that aren't satisfied with the amino acid profile they get from their diet they could consider whether a collagen powder or supplement would be right for [00:26:04] them. Collagen there's over 28 different types of collagen that have been identified. Sometimes you'll see numbers higher than that 32. I've seen numbers even higher than 40. When you get real high there starts to become debates over whether they're just mutated types of collagen or whether it actually really is a new type. But over 93% of the collagen in the body is collagen type 1. Collagen type 1 forms a framework in the skin, the bones, the ligaments, the tendons, the blood vessels, teeth, the gums. The body has over I think it's two square meters of skin and over 200 square meters of mucous membranes. The type ones and all of those types of them compounds. Type two most are type 2 was spongier, flicker type of collagen fiber [00:27:04] and that's found in cartilage and in the eye in some places. And then type 3 is a variety of type one that the body can make very quickly. So as an example, if you say break a bone, the body tries to build as much first it makes a blood clot and then it tries to make as much collagen as ut can to start to repair the bone. And it often is if it can't make enough type 1 it'll make a lot of type 3. Same in the skin. If somebody gets a cut the body will make a blood clot and then it'll try to make as much type 1 as the body can. If it doesn't like the rate that of the type one collagen being formed it makes a lot of type 3 collagen. The type three collagen is easy and fast to make but it's a lower quality and the more type three collagen made, the more scarring that will occur. And generally makes a lot of the type [00:28:04] 3 at first in the first 14 days and then for the next two years, even the body goes through a phase where it tries to tear down the type 3 and replace it with type 1 as the wound continues to heal. So the type one and type three are generally found together in the same tissues and the type 3 sort of Plan B collagen where plan A what the body, in my opinion really wants to make us is the type one. So there's different types of tissues in different types of collagen that you'll see a slightly different amino acid profile. The way they link together and it's a little bit different but they're more similar than they are different. And rather than getting caught up with the types of it, I think it's important that people eat enough protein and they eat enough or take enough of the nutrients that are required [00:29:04] to activate the enzymes that take the proteins from their diet and help their body keep collagen elastin and keratin production high. In some ways Biosil helps with that. Biosil helps the body make four of the most important amino acids in collagen but still the you need protein to work with. So to me too in my opinion vitamin C and bio so is a wonderful collagen generating cocktail. And then collagen supplements somebody can or cannot take or can it might be right for them or they might not need it as a protein source depending on their other protein intake. So that's how I like to put the two in perspective.
Ed Jones: So ideally and just to kind of summarize here at the end, if a person's body is relatively healthy they can trust their own body. If they're supplying enough vitamin [00:30:04] C and Biosil the body with its intuitive wisdom will pick the right type of collagen probably to make it during the needs of the body rather than trying to pick a particular collagen powder and hoping for the best results. Does that sound like a wise statement?
Richard Passwater: Yes, sir. That's exactly right. The body is that you're the type of collagen is going to that the body makes is going to be specific determined by your DNA for the purpose of it. And regardless of what type of collagen somebody eat it’'s not going to change the messenger RNA templates being made from the DNA or change the enzymes that are being used to make that collagen.
Ed Jones: What a great way, you know, this is something that at that very few people would have any understanding because the marketing of collagen powders [00:31:05] certainly doesn't discuss it because it's too complex unless you hear someone like you that's an expert that can explain it in layman's terms. So I am hugely invested in the magic of the body following the rules of nature and genetics and RNA, DNA, and enzymes and I you know, I'm going to be firmly seated in this feeling that Biosill is the first choice to make and if someone wants to add the other two the process perhaps. So last question. I know with athletes that more collagen is certainly something we want but the thing is I feel like and you tell me if I'm wrong in this, the people are the athletes who are using collagen protein as a sole source of protein for muscle building. I just feel like to me that there might be a better choice. Let's just say don't even care about college and they say they're 21 years old, but they just bought a collagen protein. Do you feel that that's as equal to a quality whey protein for [00:32:05] their muscle building or what are your feelings?
Richard Passwater: Well I definitely think and my opinion for muscle building the Whey Protein would be a superior protein based on the amino acid profile in that. Also collagen is not a complete protein. The pro-collagen is made and depending on the type with 17 or 18 different amino acids, and then it changes to 19 or 20 amino acids in the mature collagen. But it lacks essential amino acid. So if you look back into the 1970s people used to use collagen as a diet supplement and they would use it as a protein source. And it often would as a sole protein source it can cause dire health consequences because it's not an essential amino acid. So [00:33:05] if somebody wants to use it in their diet to support, you know, giving amino acids to to make collagen it certainly has, you know, some potential to use for that but it's not a complete protein. And if somebody's looking for a first line protein supplement I always favored a complete protein source.
Ed Jones: Well, you have been such a valuable lighthouse in the kind of some foggy areas here and thank you so much, Mr. Passwater and I hope the day will come where you travels will be easier for everyone and we can get back to lectures and perhaps you can come back to our hometown and thrill the crowd as you did several years ago. But luckily we have technology today that is certainly can fill that need and I just have learned quite a bit and I am just so thrilled with finally getting some some definite answers because this is a conversation [00:34:05] that's not quite as easy to find the nitty-gritty info that you can there I can in other areas. So I thank you so much, Mr. Passwater. You keep taking care of yourself and I will look forward to perhaps another conversation down the road.
Richard Passwater: I look forward to that conversation and coming back to visit with you Mr. Jones I really enjoyed my time there and thank you for making this very fun and enjoyable and educational process for me. I really like it.
Ed Jones: Well I can tell you do and I love people with passion. And so that is it for today on the Holistic Navigator. And again, we look forward. We have a dozen new podcast ideas lined up. Feel free to email us. If you have a topic you would like to get more clarity on this is about truth is not about marketing. I'm too old to worry about that now. I want to help people to journey and their life with optimal health, with the best immune system. It's very hard [00:35:05] to enjoy the most beautiful sunrise if you're aching and you're anxious, and you're depressed, and you're full of pharmaceuticals. So empower yourself with whatever knowledge you feel is valid and I'm hoping that The Holistic Navigator is certainly filling that need so that does it for today and we will look forward to next episode. Thank you very much.
Brian Strickland: The information on this podcast in the topics discussed have not been evaluated by the FDA or any one of the medical profession and is not aimed to replace any advice you may receive from your medical practitioner. The Holistic Navigator assumes no responsibility or liability whatsoever on behalf of any purchaser or listener of these materials. The Holistic Navigator is not a doctor or doesn't claim to be please consult your physician before beginning any health regimen.